Gay rights Bay rights, let talk Say rights first!
Saturday, November 1, 2008 at 2:41PM What started as a comment became longer than my usual posts. So instead of taking up space on the MM's box, decided to post it here!
Before we go into this post which is a response to my "right to comment" being questioned, a few things:
The blogosphere is not in any way representative of the general population. If bloggers views were to represent countries, cities, religion etc. it would provide a very skewed opinion because the average blogger is computer savvy, educated and is probably economically well off compared to the average citizen!
I usually stay away from strong statements, spiteful comments, flame wars, etc. simply because that is my way of "live and let live". I have learnt over the years that it is not wise to jump to conclusions based on what you see or hear, or feel on an impulse for that matter!
that said, here is the comment?!
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Would like to point out a few things w.r.t. this post and the comments:
1. Just like you are suppposed to have done certain things before you apparently get the right to write hindi movie reviews, you should have lived in two different countries for a big part of your life before you can comment on people with dual citizenship Dual Citizenship or Non Resident Status! People who have never left their birth country to live in another country should not pass judgement on motives or reasons for choosing dual citizenshipdual citizenship or Non Resident Status (same logic should apply, no?) There are many.. and they are not purely financial!
2. If it is possible for people of this world to absorb different cultures and relish it, be it eating pizza for lunch, noodles for dinner and vaththa kozhambu for the next days lunch, or for that matter being able to celebrate Diwali and Halloween in succesion with equal vigor and happiness, there is no reason why these people cannot choose to love two lands equally!
As for "war", yes, it is a big question. As part of taking a US Citizenship, you do have to take an oath (and say it and mean it) where you definitely promise to take sides with the US if it goes to War with your previous homeland. On a personal note, it was the one sticking point for someone like me taking US citizenship. But I said it and meant it, because a long time ago, decided that dual citizenship or not, this is now my home. It was said with fond hopes of that event never happening, but it was said. That does not necessarily make one a traitor or anti-Indian or anything!
Let's take religion for example. God forbid (no pun intended here) if there are Hindu Christian riots in Delhi, what would you do? Take sides at some fundamental level? Is that even a nice or fair question to ask someone? Based on that hypothetical question and a hypothetical answer, is it okay to go pass judgement on an entire class of people?
Please read, this post.
Life takes you places and no one knows what is in store for anyone. All we can hope for is to make the world a better place. Fundamentally there is more bad in religion than good. God did not create religion, man did and for the most part, to further his own interest, but good people can see through that and co-exist. A good christian = a good hindu= a good muslim = a good person! In the event of making certain fundamental choices of right or wrong a good person, irrespective of religion, will make the same call.
I am also surprised by the fact that one is "expected to live in a country" to be able to say anything even slightly negative about that country. (apparently it is okay for anyone to say good things!)
Forget people who have taken dual citizenship, looks like even the non resident Indians have no right to comment on India, if this is true!
That bothers me. It has always bothered me and I have to speak up for my words to be heard!
A conversation this week over phone:
Me: happy diwali , how are you?
Relative: happy diwali. doing okay. What have Americans done? They are collapsing the entire world! Greenspan cooly makes a press statement saying blah blah blah..
Me: !!! (is he expecting me to apologize as an American?)
yet over many similar conversations when I have said something even slightly negative of how things are in terms of infrastructure I am told:
"you are not living here. so what do you care. don't complain. you mind your business where you are!"
Do my parents not live in India?
Do all my relatives not live in India?
Do I not spend at least 1/12 th of my year in India?
Do things that happen in India, not affect me?
When I hear about bomb blasts in Ahmedabad or Varanasi do I just go about my business or worry about family and friends?
Every time I say something about "how things could be better" it is not a "complaint". There is a word in Tamizh for this "aadangam". "oru aagangaththula sollaren". I wish I could translate that word. It is almost like a longing wish that things were different, and that wish is there because you have seen that things can be different, there are solutions and those solutions work.
It is like going to a village without electricity and you know if they had solar panels they could have electricity for at least critical needs! If you say that out loud, you are "complaining about India", "have no right to say things about lack of electricity in villages in India" etc. because:
1. you don't live in India
2. you don't live in a village
3. you are not going to personally take all your savings and convert them to solar panels in Indian villages.
To all of the above, I say "Bah!" (and the funny thing is that the bloggers who question my comment do not live in Villages or are not going to do what they ask me to do either!)
If you write about such a thing as a solar panel, how it works, how it can be cost effective and spread the awareness for the solution, maybe the people in power or the people who put those people in power would consider that approach! It is said with an "aadangam", not with an intent to criticize!
"Improvement" is change in a postive direction. If one suggests improvement, that means "Change"! A very simple statement, but it can be construed differently by different people.
Folks who understand the need for change, embrace it. The rest say things like "you are trying to make fun of the current state of affairs. what right have you? etc. etc."
The world is very polarized today.
If a vegetarian tells a person who eats meat that it is wrong to kill another creature... it sparks a debate
If a person who eats meat, tries to tell a vegetarian not to have an abortion... that sparks another debate
If a meat eating, pro-life civilian asks a vegetarian pro-choice military person, how he can actually pull the trigger and take a human life, that sparks another debate
The world is also very funny today!
The only thing that will get us through is, live and let live!
And that is "tolerance"
Tolerance is the ability to hear what Indian people who live outside have to say about India, and vice versa!
and for the record, I will say
"India is my country" **(OCI which means Overseas Citizen of India apparently does not mean Citizen in any sense of the word. See Lak's comment. So that might leave the statement as questionable at best. Based on that I can make that past tense, but the next sentence still holds true!)
You cannot take what is Indian, or what is American and separate it out of me!
ps. Anyone can write a review. How good a review is depends on the reviewers understanding of the subject matter! A person who is Indian only by blood writing a crappy review in poor taste of a Hindi Movie or Indian youth is wrong. Trying to say NRI's and dual citizens have no right to make comments by extension is equally wrong. That is the summary of this post, in case you are wondering!
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India, NRI, USA, citizenship, dual citizenship, say rights, tolerance
Reader Comments (15)
You've repeated this a few times now, so a correction is in order!
You are not a dual-citizen. You are a citizen of the USA who is an "overseas citizen of India (OCI)". The OCI is just the Indian term for what in the US is a "green card".
If you don't believe me, check the state department website:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1139.html
In 2006, India launched the "Overseas Citizens of India" (OCI) program, which has often been mischaracterized as a dual nationality program, as it does not grant Indian citizenship. Thus, an American who obtains an OCI card is not a citizen of India and remains a citizen of the United States. An OCI card in reality is similar to a U.S. "green card" in that a holder can travel to and from India indefinitely, work in India, study in India, and own property in India (except for certain agricultural and plantation properties). An OCI holder, however, does not receive an Indian passport, cannot vote in Indian elections and is not eligible for Indian government employment.
hey Sundar - I appreciate your post. And no, I didn't question your right to comment. where did you read that? I merely said its not something I understand. And asked you which side you'd choose in war. You've answered that perfectly satisfactorily :)
and if you responded to one of my comments - then that is mostly my irate response to some idiot!
sundar, I do appreciate your point, and I can understand the frustration of the NRI, whether he be a citizen or not of his adopted county. But I used to get most irritated with my late brother for resenting stupid things once he became a British citizen ( his wife and kids are British born). He would get angry at having to pay the overseas tourist admission fees at places like the Taj Mahal. And when he criticised the state of our hospitals when our father was ill, it didn't really help! Though I never doubted his emotional commitment to our parents and family, I did resent his criticism of India. I can live here and bitch all I want, but the NRI isn't supposed to! We are like this only, Sundar, what to do?
Lak, point taken.. although OCI was pitched as something else when it was introduced.
still the point holds.
when you go to singapore, you post about things that are good about singapore, bad about singapore.. do you need to fill out forms, write a check or get permission from some group of people before you can say what is good or bad?
even for the equivalent of an NRI in the US... same question stands!
Dipali answered the question..once again it goes to the motive behind the comment. Complaints, especially one sided are in bad taste, but things said with the intent of an idea to improve, should not be treated along same lines.
:)
MM, no your post was not the issue. Although some lines in your post were used as leaders by the irate commenters.
:)
here is more information for those of you who are wondering..
it is interesting..
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html
Sundar,
I had to read MM's post because you had mentioned. Being a regular to your blog, I know what you have meant in your previous post. I am also of the same status. I have not yet gone for OCI. I agree with you on all points. Again, I am also of the opinion that MM has not said anything about your right to comment. Anyhow, it is a difficult situation. As we travel our knowledge improves and it is a great experience to live and adapt to a new land which is different to our culture and tradition. But still we could make it. Man has been doing this for ages. So my perception is we are in the transition age. Just go forward and think about our generations after 100 or 200 years. It will be so different. In Britian, we have a history that Roman conquered many years before. Is it that easy to find who are of Roman origina now? I do not think so. Again, as the world changes the thoughts will change. My only vision and hope is for the world to change. Everyone has every right to talk on everything towards the positive and betterment. After some years these will change. Everyone on this earth should live as a human with a variety of culture. Lot of transformations should happen. People need to change. This is a very deep topic and I would like to think more. But honestly I feel most of the bloggers are intellectuals and are good thinkers. At some point of life we allow our mind to become conditioned and never want to think beyond that. If we do not condition our mind, we accept all changes. I am easily able to adapt both the culture. I have mentioned several times in my previous posts that children are also trying to understand both culture. We do like and wish for everything to be better. The good thoughts are being mistaken by others and so people spill their own words. I know somebody who was talking against everyone who was settling in abroad, but was indirectly trying one of his family member to settle in abroad. I know somebody who was talking against something when it was happening, but is totally different now when they have got into such a situation. Now they have some explanation. So, most of them are first class hypocrites, just like our politicians. The world is packed with them. Anyhow we need to keep going.
Very nicely written post!! Thanks!!
the madmomma:
allegiance to two countries is similar to allegiance to one's spouse and to one's parents. when your parent(s) and spouse fight/argue/disagree, who do you pledge your allegiance to? spouse or parent?
everyone:
i thought i spend too much time reading blogs and such. now i read only two or three. the only reason i went to mad momma's blog was because sundar linked to it. i confess i could not find the time or interest to read that one post and the related comments entirely (even though the topic is very very engrossing).
my very serious question - how do you guys manage to do it? is your reading (and typing) speed double or quadruple mine?
balaji:
no, she did not in the post, but she did in her response to a comment from megha. pleading heat of the situation does not exculpate her (in my opinion).
but, like i said above, i have neither the time nor the energy to involve myself in this debate.
comments like that and the one quoted below in response to http://terristurf.blogspot.com/2008/10/wrong-time-of-month.html" REL="nofollow">this post are frustrating, but there is not much i can really do about it.
"Tears in the eyes for the pain you're suffering.
If men had it, there would be a cure or they would be loojing (sic)harder for one."
- s.b.
great post Sundar. I was planning on saying something similar on MM's blog (which I also read regularly), but after reading her comments, I realized her post was more about the treatment of minority in India and about how some Indians in the US live here, get all the opportunities that US has to give them and then talk about how americans have no morals. I hate that. Not trying to defend MM here, btw :)
Having said that, I really liked your post, not as a reply to MM's post, but as a reply to a lot of comments that I face in India when I go back and either say something good about the US or something bad about India. Even though they have no qualms talking ill about the US, where they have never set foot.
I think you summed it up best with
"A person who is Indian only by blood writing a crappy review in poor taste of a Hindi Movie or Indian youth is wrong. Trying to say NRI's and dual citizens have no right to make comments by extension is equally wrong. "
Sorry about the long post!
--Aruna
Sundar,
I am de-lurking for the first time though I read your blog all the time. So apologies if I come off as crossing the line in my comment it is only due to familiarity.
I agree with couple of your points
1.Experience or atleast learn about the experience before making the judgement on NRI would only be fair. I have always been Patriotic/Jingoistic about India and I find myself with more supporters here in US than i found in India. May be only when we cross the line our inborn loyalties get triggered.
2. And also U.S is a land of immigrants so more than any other country in the world, it is aware of such conflicting loyalties. I remember watching a program on Iraqi immigrants and what they felt about this whole iraqi war.
Both of the above you would not have realized if you had only been in India.
3. My only question was, "where you definitely promise to take sides with the US"
Citizenship cannot be binary, may be? I don't know if you were equating riots to war, though it is true in one sense, it is a little far-fetched. i.e i am a hindu I will not participate in the riot or support it, as an Indian, I will support the war my country.
It really doesn't matter what your reason of shift for loyalities, you shifted, in the process amply made it clear what your choice was. That makes you a not a citizen of India. it is only natural, ella?
Let me honestly know where i am going wrong with this reasoning.
-sachita
Ps: this is why i don't comment, i can never restrict to a short one.
pps: i get the same treatment, when i got scared of the traffic in india, but we have all been in india before, so if you just tap your brain cells, you will understand why indians are touchy about criticism.
Sachita, correct.
in a way, not a citizen, as the choice is clear when in time of war! totally agree with you on that.
everyone at everytime does not live with a war or doomsday scenario with a "what if these two countries go to war" logic.
Citizenship can be binary, except in the war scenario! The war scenario is not a daily event, it is a rarity, in most cases a hypothetical. However, one has to be clear of one's loyalties in the event and that is understandable.
In an ideal war less world, Citizenship can definitely be binary! that is why I posted the faq link in the comments section.
but lets look at the context when saying
"hindus and muslims can live peacefully except when there are riots" = "Americans and Indians can live peacefully except when there are Indo American wars"
hindu muslim riots lot more common than Indo-American wars, no?
(and until this Orissa events, I had never heard of Hindu Christian riots!)
anyways, no more long emails.
I lived through the Mandal commission agitations and the Ram Janmabhoomi episode while in Banaras.
happened to be caught cycling around Lanka gate in BHU and saw doctoral students with their white coats, stet still hanging from their necks, with big wood pieces in one hand driving bikes to go beat up people.. how can would be doctors take up violence? it was mind boggling.. have also been stuck in gadowlia when they lifted curfew and suddenly put it back on, where people butchered their neighbours by the hundreds in the few hours curfew was relaxed.
do not need memories of those days now.
NO, I am not equating riots to war, however that was the implication in some of those comments. somehow dual citizenship was seen as an oxymoron and a disqualification to comment on tolerance, riots etc.
Hey, you who have declared that "in the event of a war with your former country, you will take sides with your new country" , and by that extension a person who "does not love India", should not speak about
a. taking sides
b. religious tolerance
c. tolerance
somewhere there is a huge leap : that taking that oath = grabing a gun and raring to go at your former country. That is what I do not get!
In effect, anyone taking up US citizenship (and again there was insinuation that all people who take up citizenship here are doing it for financial reasons and all people who decide to have kids here do it for making their kids American!) cannot possibly love India because they have declared that in the event of a war with India, they will support US!
There are so many Americans here who are non violent! So many here who are not war mongers. They will hopefully "Prevail" in the coming election!
When Draupadi vastra haran was going on, it was not just duryodhan/ duschasan doing it. the entire court ignored his actions and looked the other way...
there was no United Nations vastraharn oversight committee in those days and looks like things have not changed much!
Much like how GWB/TB got away with the war in Iraq!
If you read that posts comments you will see that there is also an insinuation that all Americans are for the war in Iraq and are GWB supporters. Oh, what an insult.
I was not for the war. Maybe someday when I stand for a local election, that might come in handy?
:)
@ Aruna. Exactly. i dont think i need to be defended against Sundar though :) but thank you for understanding the point. Sundar isnt one of those people anyway, so he was the last one I figured would take it up!
@s.b.well i've taken vows to stand by my husband through thick and thin. So if he were wrong, i'd tell him, but i'd still stand by him. does that answer your question?
as for my response to megha - i dont seek to be exculpated at all. she made a ridiculously rude remark. i responded in kind. what i have to say - is said in the post.
thanks for the interesting discussion Sundar :)
hi MM,
I have learnt a lot in the process of responding to your post and more the comments in your post than the post itself!
so it was worth the effort for me.
you definitely do not need to be defended against me.
I was not taking you to task. This is an ongoing issue for the last 13 years or so, at a personal level, something that is not new apparently and something that might not have a solution.
:)
Hey Sundar,
I know that. I don't in fact believe that you cannot love two countries in your own way. I love Delhi and my hometown - both, very much. If at all, the post was about those who live in the US and still criticise it at every opportunity. The morals, the attitude, the discrimination etc etc.. whatever else their problems maybe. Which is the exact opposite of what you have to say. They obviously DONT love the US all that much. And that is what my problem was - the living in a place, making your money off it - and not finding one good thing to say about it, having no loyalty towards it...
as you can see - that is NOT you :)
Can you please come with me when I visit India next? I get really tired when people criticize "your US" but I cannot say one remotely negative thing about the country and place I grew up in. Sometimes I get so angry, words don't come out. Next time, I am gonna take a copy of your post with me - for debate points :P